Air Mines hate topic

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KoBeWi
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Looks like the 0.9.23 is getting closer, so I'd like to request one more change before the release: change to Air Mines. Right now, they are the most annoying and cancerous thing ever existed in this game. I absolutely loathe them, and round with at least one of them, is usually a bad round for me. So, what is making them so bad? Their freaking persistence in chasing you. If you get just a little too close to one, it will follow you, like, FOREVER. Whenever this happens, you know you are screwed and this turn will be wasted. So, how would I fix it? Most important: make the mines chase the CLOSEST Hedgehog. It's absolutely stupid when you are followed by mine and get close to enemy. Then you distance yourself from enemy, but guest what, the mine will ignore your enemy and keep chasing you like obsessed pervert. Even if it could just stop by the enemy, because it flew JUST BY him, with you being far away right now. Second, there isn't always an enemy you can give your "loyal friend" to. In that case, the mine should stop following you at certain distance. Even if it's like this now, the distance is just too long. These bastards follow you across the map, until your demise. And that's it. I don't know the inner workings (code) of the Air Mines, so someone could take care and fix them. Thanks.
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UltiMaxKom
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[quote=KoBeWi] Right now, they are the most annoying and cancerous thing ever existed in this game [/quote] lol What a true Hate Topic Big Grin [quote=KoBeWi] FOREVER. Whenever this happens, you know you are screwed and this turn will be wasted. [/quote] I really, really, understand this one x) [quote=KoBeWi] but guest what, the mine will ignore your enemy and keep chasing you like obsessed pervert [/quote] LMAO xD !!! Wow ! Lol What a nice day for me to see this xD #obsessedpervertfreakinglyfunny --- Anyway... Agree at some point The Mine SERIOUSLY JUNKIE WEIRDO to the "CurrentHedgehog" !!! It's simply fking weirdo to see a mine come from NOWHERE AND HIT YOU !!! No ! CurrentHedgehog NOT EVEN touch it's hellish proximity BUT it's chase you for no reason ! FOR HOG SAKE !!! Please fix many problem on Air Mines I won't decribe everything here, simply -> It's bugged <-[0.9.22] Thanks ^^
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Wuzzy
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[quote]So, what is making them so bad? Their freaking persistence in chasing you. If you get just a little too close to one, it will follow you, like, FOREVER. Whenever this happens, you know you are screwed and this turn will be wasted.[/quote] Okay, this is clearly bad and needs to be fixed. I will add this into the bug tracker. [quote]Second, there isn't always an enemy you can give your "loyal friend" to. In that case, the mine should stop following you at certain distance. Even if it's like this now, the distance is just too long. These bastards follow you across the map, until your demise.[/quote] Yeah, seems like another valid complaint. [quote]So, how would I fix it? Most important: make the mines chase the CLOSEST Hedgehog.[/quote] This is not an ideal solution. With this, air mines can then be easily used againt those who placed them, giving you a cheap chance to hurt enemies without attacking. This is also true for other land objects, but not in such an extent. Air mines are still supposed to be traps. I agree these are real problems, I am not sure about the solutions yet. If you want to help, you could try to use Game Hacks (https://hedgewars.org/node/6279) and experiment with the [code]airmine*[/code] settings. By the way: I recently removed air mines from Shoppa for next version, based on popular opinion. Admittedly, nemo didn't like this change but he seems to be a lone wolf here. Those who want Shoppa with air mines still can easily just copy Shoppa and create the air mine variant.
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KoBeWi
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[quote=Wuzzy]This is not an ideal solution. With this, air mines can then be easily used againt those who placed them, giving you a cheap chance to hurt enemies without attacking. This is also true for other land objects, but not in such an extent.[/quote]It should be possible for mine to know who placed it, so it would ignore the owner.
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nemo
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So... The intent of air mine was to have a scary air obstacle. As a non-shoppa pro, I appreciated them because in a match with a few of them I had a modest chance of winning against a pro who was just flipping across the map without a care. It forced them to be a bit more cautious, or they'd do same stuff, screw up, and give me a turn to make a comeback. That said, clearly pros don't like it, so, remove it, whatever. In terms of the mechanics. The intent was to have them be, well, an actual threat. If you could trivially pull them off onto an opponent they are not much of a threat. The default rules (mostly lua configurable) are. Timer: ¼ of regular mine timer, tweaked based on how easy it was to sail past one. Trigger distance: 175px by default Escape distance: trigger distance * 6 = so 1050px by default (or about a quarter of a large shoppa map width). If you come within trigger range, the mine locks on to you for 5 seconds. At the end of 5 seconds, it checks to see if you are still in range. If not, it'll try locking on to the closest target in range. That's why certain shoppa players (clearly not kobewi) are quite effective at luring a mine over near another hog, then hiding behind the hog until the mine reaquires in a few seconds. The intent was to not make it be stupid easy to abuse, but still allow it to be abusable w/ a little creativity. If you get outside the escape distance (that ~¼ 4096x2048 map width) it'll stop chasing. If you can't manage to get a thousand pixels away but also avoid it for 10 seconds it should stop chasing. If you manage to get another hog between you and it at the end of the 5 second lock on period it'll attack that hog. Skipping turn works too as a last resort. Well. those were the intended escape scenarios. Can't rule out there being a bug!
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nemo
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With regards to ignoring the owner. Eh. Regular mines don't do that.. and if you are using it to defend an entrance in a regular game when darksiding you can still put an obstacle or a bend in your tunnel to protect you. If we ever added an automatic turret (or my preference, a creeper), there was no plan to have it "ignore owner" too. That's up to the placer to watch out for
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KoBeWi
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Air mines [i]might[/i] be ok for Shoppa, but they are utterly not ok for other game modes. When you play online and host makes a custom mode with air mines, it's just terrible.
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nemo
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Well. That's the host's judgement call I'd say. With any fairly convoluted terrain they are pretty easy to avoid (tunnels, terrain detail slider cranked up). They are also pretty easy to avoid with a lot of movement (any mode with infinite ropes or saucer) or a lot of blocking (any mode with a ton of girders or rubber). So. Yeah. I'd say that's their call. Also the number of them matters a lot too. Some people like having tons of them, but then some people like playing Crazy too.
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Lyberta
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My only complaint is that they lag. I can easily play with 500+ mines but 200+ air mines lag a lot.
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nemo
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So... An idle airmine at present calls the generic falling stuff once per game tick, while an idle mine does it only every 64 ticks. I could add some check on movement to shortcircuit that I guess. That could be the reason for the perf (as well as just the active ones doing a bit more than a mine)
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KoBeWi
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Ah, I realized what problem I have with Shoppa. Camera movement. Camera in Hedgewars needs some improvement, especially when you move at high speeds across the map. It should stay IN FRONT of you and scale distance with your speed, so you can easily see where you are going. I don't know about others, but I have problems to move around, unless I fully zoom out. That's slightly off this topic, however improvements on this matter would make Air Mines easier to cope with in situations when you have rope/saucer and lots of space to fly around for a while. Also more off topic, the fact that enemy using air strike/girder weapons locks YOUR camera at HIS cursor, is... [i]not fun[/i].
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Wuzzy
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I would appreciate it very much if you post your bug reports to https://issues.hedgewars.org/ Feature requests are probably fine, too, but only if they make sense and you have put some thought into it. Wink Smiley Your camera movement suggestion makes a lot of sense.
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